menta
Sarvana Haalan: *mental
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): those are all great examples
Glitteractica Cookie: this is not unlike any other online community, for professional networking
Calliope Novaland: I think Lisa is on to somthing.
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): first up, Sarvana had something she wanted to say
Arielion Clawtooth: (Touchy much?) ;0)
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): Sarvana?
Sarvana Haalan: Oh… almost forgot…
LisaSchaefer Ruby: I have used a pseudonym to experiment with how I’m treated differently when I’m female, male, and unknown
bulaklak: When I worked at the International Museum of Women, we encouraged fully fleshed out profiles on our forums, yet we also understood and allowed for anonymity and pseudonymity. It was important for women to be able to speak out about violence or repression without fear of retaliation.
Jen (jenelle.levenque): absolutely
Glitteractica Cookie: It is important that peole who are representing the nonprofits that they work at are on the up and up and that we have the blessing of the org to participate, otherwise we are defeating teh purpose of this community, frankly
[Widget Whiteberry: so we could add ‘research’ to motivations for pseudonymity
Sarvana Haalan: I have found that linking SL and RL enabled more networking in RL especially when you want to share information about issues, programs or funding opps
Glitteractica Cookie: Yes Sarvana, we hpoe that is the experience of all our members
Widget Whiteberry: seems there are very good reasons to link and not link identities
Jen (jenelle.levenque): I use my SL name as my RL female name
LisaSchaefer Ruby: has anyone performed any formal research on the role gender plays in an anonymous world?
Jen (jenelle.levenque): It is now listed on the TAVA website
Sarvana Haalan: I am connected to several in-world colleagues in Facebook, Twitter, and Google+
Francesca Barnes: Another aspect of research, for me, is that I want people who are unfamiliar and nervous about online communities to try it out. They need privacy to fulfill our Human Subjects Protection commitments.
Arielion Clawtooth: And we’re not even dealing with the issue of avatar association. A lot of people have a connection to their avatars, a sort of “wall of illusion” that is broken when forced to be the “real self” again. (Those with challenges who can be anything and anyone in SL forced to be the RL self, etc.)
Glitteractica Cookie: Yes Lisa, there are loads of articles on that
Ozma Malibu: Good point Arielion
bulaklak: Lisa, Rik and I saw a gentleman speak about that this year
bulaklak: I dont‘ recall his name
iSkye Bonde (iskye.silverweb): With so many ways people can be attacked online, their real identities stolen, reputations harmed, it’s safer to have a pseudonym and to have the OPTION to volunteer certain information instead of being told, “We are this hugely popular social network and we want to make megabucks off your personal info. Surrender it or the virtual door gets slammed in your face!”
bulaklak: He is an anthropologist
Glitteractica Cookie: in fact the NPC was featured in the New Scientist several years ago, b/c one of our members @jani myriam in SL was a transgender avatar who became a transgender woman
LisaSchaefer Ruby: Glitteratica: do you have a list you could sent me?
bulaklak: Who stuides gender in Second Life
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): Lisa was bringing up some of the negatives associated with complete anonymity online
Hour Destiny: Some people are actually taken more seriously when they’re not using their RL selves.
Glitteractica Cookie: Lisa, I can send you a couple
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): Trolling, griefing and the like
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): Can we talk about that for a bit?
Glitteractica Cookie: please email community@techsoup.org and remind me
bulaklak: Tom Boellstorff
Ozma Malibu: If you are intersted in research issues, ask on the SLED list
Widget Whiteberry: virtuality frees us from the projections we encounter in rl
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): What are some of the negatives of online anonymity?
Buffy Beale: oh, yes I heard Tom speak in SL about his book
bulaklak: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tom_Boellstorff
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): (tom is great)
Buffy Beale: ty bulaklak
Widget Whiteberry: Rik, are we talking anonymity or psuedonymity?
LisaSchaefer Ruby: ty buffy
Hour Destiny: Usually, there is much less credibility.
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): either, widget
Widget Whiteberry: they are very different
Buffy Beale: so negative would be it’s hard to trust if you don’t really know who you’re talking to
Arielion Clawtooth: On the serface it seems like stripping away avatar names would make it harder for grievers but really it would cause those with that intent to step up their game and steal other identities.
Widget Whiteberry: we should separate them
Arielion Clawtooth: *surface
okay just complete anonymity first
Widget Whiteberry: thank you
Sarvana Haalan: personally… I get concern at times about how some individuals may react once thry discover my racial background… I fear that it may disrupt our potentila collaboration.
Calliope Novaland: I think anonomous or pseudo is an important one
Hour Destiny: Attackers would be much harder to spot and stop.
bulaklak: Well, from a Community Manager standpoint, it’s interesting. Anonymity can potentially degrade the level of conversation because people don’t feel accountable for what they say.
Widget Whiteberry: Widget Whiteberry nods to Sarvana
bulaklak: Especially in blogs.
TammySM: Well i think the biggest negative would be if someone came in to get help..some may feel ok sharing if anonymous but not it you can be found out.
Hour Destiny: So, much less accountibility.
Arielion Clawtooth: Wbulaktak I see that as a plus not a minus.
bulaklak: It’s something a little shy of trolling.
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): chatroulette is some of what I fear from complete anonymity
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): a complete breakdown of social norms and behaviors.
Sarvana Haalan: Have had one one situation so far… which was good but not a surprise
bulaklak: I definitely see both sides Aerillion
LisaSchaefer Ruby: I like the FB experience better than sl, because people are portraying their real selves on fb. But I also know those people irl
bulaklak: Sock puppeting is a real issue
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): a lowest common denominator experience that doesn’t help anyone.
TammySM: well anyone you may want to work with shouldn’t make a difference and if that causes them not to you sure dont want to work with them
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): So what is the difference between complete anonymity and pseudoanonymity? or are they just degrees of difference?
Sarvana Haalan: a colleague reminded me that the person behind each ava may bring their RL bias into SL. 🙁
iSkye Bonde (iskye.silverweb): I see more negatives than positives, it’s really very worrying for me to see the trends everywhere. I’m fearing the day when in order to keep my identity private the only thing I can do is go off-grid completely. That will be a sad day for anyone.
Hour Destiny: The first one keeps chaning and the second one is where you stick with an identity.
Calliope Novaland: for me it’s a fuller expression of a pen name
Hour Destiny: *changing
iSkye Bonde (iskye.silverweb): Hour’s definition works for me.
LisaSchaefer Ruby: hm… when I play a male…is that anonymity or pseudonymity
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): (side note: I love this convo and appreciating everyone right now!)
Arielion Clawtooth: @Iskye No such thing as off the grid anymore. DId you see the research on face identity from photos? Google just bought the technology. If there’s a photo of your RL face your identity is known
Hour Destiny: To be completely anonymous, you need to keep changing identities.
bulaklak: Also at BAN6, I saw Eva Galperin from the Electronic Fronteir Foundation speak very eloquently about this issue. They do a lot of advocacy work around anonymity online. It really opened my eyes to the positives. https://www.eff.org/issues/anonymity
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): thanks bulaklak
Ozma Malibu: I started with 2 avatars, one for education and one for nonprofit, but Ozma and Sandy are the same person. I can’t really disconnect them from each other. So I use just the one. I don’t know what to call this situation. But have the other in case I need it & she’s anonymous.
Arielion Clawtooth: And because someone else’s security is at risk, so is yours.
Hour Destiny: I’ve identified people by their patterns in their behaviour.
Arielion Clawtooth: If a police officer’s identity is found out and a gang finds out about him, anyone associated with that police officer is at risk.
Jen (jenelle.levenque): People’s personalities come through even with just the text or IM
Calliope Novaland: I love how that works Hour 🙂
Widget Whiteberry: The people I work with @ Virtually speaking know my rl identity, but the -other – people who I meet in SL do not unless there is some ‘need to know’
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): Let me say from a youth development perspective, giving a young person opportunities to separate somewhat from their RL identity can be a very empowering and important experience.
Ozma Malibu: absolutely, Rik.
Widget Whiteberry: Rik, I think that’s true for many of us
Arielion Clawtooth: @Rik and exposing their identity very dangerous
Michele Mrigesh: good point, Ric
Calliope Novaland: yes, Rik
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): They can experience what it might be like to be a different race, gender, physical experience, culture, etc
Michele Mrigesh: Rik*
Jen (jenelle.levenque): Not just the young folk Rik
RedGoddess (talkwithmarie): agree@Rik
Widget Whiteberry: it was certainly true for me – very empowering
Jen (jenelle.levenque): For Veterans as well as Transfolk
RedGoddess (talkwithmarie): for most ppl I think.
Ozma Malibu: street kids: it’s nonsense to ask them to use RL identities.
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): they can literally try on different faces!
Calliope Novaland: works for older folks too
Sarvana Haalan: I must confuse that when I first returned to SL in 2009… I had been here earlier but the rudeness an dusability intimidated me… Oh, when I returned I found several avas in this community ( who made me feel comfortable in my “ava skin”. That why am so hooked on TechSoup and NPSL…. You are “real” in a virtual setting. 🙂
Buffy Beale: yes Oz, true enough
bulaklak: Great point, Rik
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): well I am old and set in my ways. Lol
iSkye Bonde (iskye.silverweb): it was ENORMOUSLY empowering for me to take on the identity iSkye Silverweb. I’ve been able to do so many more things with that than I would have with my RL identity.
Francesca Barnes: For many, I think that being gay and being in SL have shared atributes…being closeted is similar to having a “straight” avatar in RL
LisaSchaefer Ruby: I thought tat if I went around as a man, I’d ge more ‘respect.’ It’s not true. On most sims, people assume you’re young & uneducated even as a male
Arielion Clawtooth: Look at the boy that was bullied for homosexuality and killed himself for photos on the internet. Anonymous and as an avatar he could have expressed himself openly, but once his RL identity was shown, it pushed him over the edge.
bulaklak: In a way, it butts up against the creation of fiction, so there is a creative element in there, too, that I think is important
bulaklak: It’s a form of storytelling. Or can be
Hour Destiny: Also, I’ve heard of people having a lot of respect for a guild leader in a game like WoW and then finding out that person is a 9 year old (or thereabouts). If they knew the age beforehand, I doubt the kid would have been taken very seriously.
TammySM: omg
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): hour, that kid can develop his leadership skills without being judged!
Zinnia Zauber: I know I work on being as myself in SL as I am in RL. But, I think people really should focus on being their best self in SL.
iSkye Bonde (iskye.silverweb): That is one brilliant mind in that 9 year old body!
iSkye Bonde (iskye.silverweb): A treasure!
Jen (jenelle.levenque): We all have multiple personsas
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): Zinnia, you are stealing my talking points for tomorrow
Calliope Novaland: that kid is already a leader
Arielion Clawtooth: It basically takes away 50% of the draw for being in a virtual world to begin with.
Zinnia Zauber: Well, I talk about this all the time.
Calliope Novaland: yes Jen!
bulaklak: I thought we were writing them right now, Rik
Jen (jenelle.levenque): SL gives us an opportunity to express them in a more accepting environment
Zinnia Zauber: This has been the focus of my work.
Glitteractica Cookie: And remember that there are many communities that don’t request for ppl to say their RL identiies. PPL can choose
Widget Whiteberry: I think of my avatar as part psychological projection and part creative outlet, all identity exploration ….
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): I think people outside of SL don’t understand that about what makes this a special place
Sarvana Haalan: plus here it does not matter that I am almost “older than dirt”. LOL, LOL when is what true collaborative interaction should be about
Zinnia Zauber: The avatar is our self worshipped and respected.
Buffy Beale: I agree Rik
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): all they see is crummy graphics and lag and virtual sex
bulaklak: lol
Sarvana Haalan: *which is…
Widget Whiteberry: Zinnia! ++
Hour Destiny: How does one use their RL identify in a fictional world like WoW, where everything else is fantasy? 🙂
Zinnia Zauber: This space is were we need to teach personal responsiblity and respect.
Ozma Malibu: The storytelling issue is important..we know that young people can work through issues by storytelling. But I have spoken up for NOT putting any kind of RL stories on the web in such cases. Then it’s there forever. Even stuff like poverty. I mean, seriously, that is a breach of ethics to even suggest using RL identities. We cannot do that in research anyway.
Zinnia Zauber: So, your name isn’t as important as your actions are.
HB Eternal: yay Zin
LisaSchaefer Ruby: I like going around as a weird ugly blob sometimes. The funny thing is, people assume I’m male when I do & they’re all mean. Then I get on by voice – suddenly I’m a real person…and female!
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): We should wrap up in a few minutes.
Calliope Novaland: good experiment Lisa
TammySM: lol
Sarvana Haalan: Rik… I am feeling a future NPSL “Multi-cultural” Summit emerging from this conversation… smikles
Sarvana Haalan: *smiles
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): But I wanted to make sure that everyone had a chance to say what they are feeling on this subject
iSkye Bonde (iskye.silverweb): I hope a transcript of this will become available? This is such a good discussion!
Sarvana Haalan: this has been an stimulating “real world” discussion
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): and any efforts being taken to work on these issues with LL and Google Plus
Hour Destiny: I wonder how many Lindens have avatars that are anonymous?
Calliope Novaland: Is this an ongoing conversation in this group?
Zinnia Zauber: When you are raised on Sesame Street, it doesn’t matter if you are a monster, you are still a “good person”.
Hour Destiny: Does anyone at Google have a private profile?
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): Calliope, no this is the first we’ve talked about it that I know
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): But we may have some speaker in the future talk more directly about Google Plus
LisaSchaefer Ruby: my niece is a monster
Widget Whiteberry: Widget Whiteberry smirkles (nod to Sar)
Arielion Clawtooth: @Lisa Aren’t they all as children? :o)
LisaSchaefer Ruby: but we love the monsters
Calliope Novaland: I’d like to create a forum for this convo. it has many sides and there is much to say about it.
Jen (jenelle.levenque): lol @ arielion
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): (its nice that you let a dragon facilitate these meetings!)
CarynTopia Silvercloud: that would be great to continue the discussion
Sarvana Haalan: When I was in Metaplace (before they closed down), there was a “Multicultural Celebration … a great “teaching” opp
TammySM: lol
HB Eternal: I was a child once…. I think I still might be
Jen (jenelle.levenque): The pengquin left us
Buffy Beale: misses the little penguin
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): me too, buffy
Sarvana Haalan: I miss the penguin tooo
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): Okay I think we are getting side tracked
Arielion Clawtooth: Imagine the bullying some kid would get if he or she was a penguin and identified in RL
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): so let’s close this discussion for now, and thanks everyone for the honest and smart perspectives
LisaSchaefer Ruby: this was a really good discussion
Jen (jenelle.levenque): I’m not sure we are off track
bulaklak: Yeah, very great discussion.
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): Again, this will get posted to our google group, and to nonprofitcommons.org
Zinnia Zauber: There are two talks about avatars during SLCC. Please attend or watch them.
Glitteractica Cookie: thanks for facilitating, Rik
Buffy Beale: the transcripts are posted every week at http://www.nonprofitcommons.org
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): so we can continue to converse there and have updates here as they come up
Jen (jenelle.levenque): I find the acceptance of totally outrageous avatars as almost normal in SL. How can we translate that to acceptance RL
Arielion Clawtooth: Strange that people fight in RL over skin color but being another species in SL is no problem.
RedGoddess (talkwithmarie): good question@Jen
Buffy Beale: that’s a great question Jen
Calliope Novaland: I am a member of a group called Creative Identity, and we are about to revive it if anyone would like to join. This topic will be a big part of the discussion.
Widget Whiteberry: Perhaps virtuality teaches tolerance
Jen (jenelle.levenque): Cool
Sarvana Haalan: Arielion… so true
Jen (jenelle.levenque): All we need is an answer
Buffy Beale: great Calliope!
bulaklak: Cool, Calliope
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): Jen, great comment
Jen (jenelle.levenque): Usually not as easy as the question
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): Calliope, is that an SL group?
Zinnia Zauber: Authentic Avatar Brand: Build Trust Through Your Virtual Presence – by me and Authentic Avatar Brand: Build Trust Through Your Virtual Presence by a panel including Drax
LisaSchaefer Ruby: I wonder how rl would be if we didn’t have gender
TammySM: it would stink
Zinnia Zauber: Avatar Identity: Privacy and Transparency in Social Media
Ozma Malibu: Rik gave me the opening line for a list of suggestions I made of how to conduct a class in SL.
Calliope Novaland: yes, Rik
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): oh? ok
Sarvana Haalan: That’s is one reason why I desire so for RL colleagues to come in-world…. an example of real collaboration regardless of our differences.
Ozma Malibu: One very early day at the NPC meeting he said “oh, excuse me, did I just explode?”
TammySM: that is like saying what if we are all the same….boring
Arielion Clawtooth: There are some things you still need RL for. ;o) Not willing to give up that part. :o)
Ozma Malibu: Excellend manners, Rik.
Rik Panganiban (rik.riel): lol
Calliope Novaland: Thank you Rik, this was excellent!
Written by: rikomatic
